Whenever I use the D-Pad my thumb hits to touch pad and causes the cursor to show up. I've found no practical use for the touch pad and it's really just in the way.
I doubt anyone will be interested in it. It's cumbersome and just doesn't belong.
Anyone else with me on this?
public void SueseMethod(Suese suese, Feature feature, World world)
Whenever I use the D-Pad my thumb hits to touch pad and causes the cursor to show up. I've found no practical use for the touch pad and it's really just in the way.
I doubt anyone will be interested in it. It's cumbersome and just doesn't belong.
Anyone else with me on this?
No. No, I am most certainly not with you on this. Look at pretty much any Xbox/WiiU/PS3 game. Probably at least 80% of the games you find are going to make heavy use of the D-Pad for very important in-game actions (like in L4D, you use the D-pad to quickly access important items like your Medkit/Defib, Pain Pills, Bile Jar, Pipe Bomb, etc) And it's pretty much a NECESSITY for any self-respecting fighting game to use the D-pad. Just because your game doesn't use the D-pad doesn't mean ALL games do not use the D-pad.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
Whenever I use the D-Pad my thumb hits to touch pad and causes the cursor to show up. I've found no practical use for the touch pad and it's really just in the way.
I doubt anyone will be interested in it. It's cumbersome and just doesn't belong.
Anyone else with me on this?
No. No, I am most certainly not with you on this. Look at pretty much any Xbox/WiiU/PS3 game. Probably at least 80% of the games you find are going to make heavy use of the D-Pad for very important in-game actions (like in L4D, you use the D-pad to quickly access important items like your Medkit/Defib, Pain Pills, Bile Jar, Pipe Bomb, etc) And it's pretty much a NECESSITY for any self-respecting fighting game to use the D-pad. Just because your game doesn't use the D-pad doesn't mean ALL games do not use the D-pad.
He was complaining about the touchpad, not the D-Pad :)
But I do disagree with you Suese, I think we're gonna find some cool uses for it in more experimental gameplay. Might not be your thing, but with so much indie interest in Ouya, I'm happy its there.
My problem with the touch pad is that it gets in the way when using the D-Pad. I see no use for it other than either as a novelty or as a way to work with legacy android apps.
It would be much better to have a start+select button there instead of the touch pad. Really, honestly, how many games, percentage-wise are going to use the touch pad in a memorable and important way? I'm guessing not many.
Anything the touch-pad does the direction pads can probably do better.
I'm still not with you on the touch pad though. Aside from the fact that they are not going to change anything at this point (it's way too late for that), the touchpad could actually be used for interesting and engaging gameplay mechanics, the same way touchscreens are useful for a lot more than virtual thumbsticks and buttons. Plus, of course, you'll see a few games here and there that use it for Quick-Time Events ;)
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
I've been using the controller a lot recently, and have to say, after several hours of playing with it:
My hand felt tired. Much of the play was on the dpad and analog sticks, not even using the triggers. Unfortunately, I can't quite nail down why that is yet, but I noticed it after only an hour or two of playing.
The analog sticks have started to squeak rather loudly, especially the left one. It is INCREDIBLY annoying, and incredibly cheap feeling. I don't know if this is a result of the clear plastic or what.
The analog sticks have started to squeak rather loudly, especially the left one. It is INCREDIBLY annoying, and incredibly cheap feeling. I don't know if this is a result of the clear plastic or what.
Whenever I use the D-Pad my thumb hits to touch pad and causes the cursor to show up. I've found no practical use for the touch pad and it's really just in the way.
I doubt anyone will be interested in it. It's cumbersome and just doesn't belong.
Anyone else with me on this?
So, rather than asking for a simple API call to prevent the cursor from showing up, you'd rather remove a feature that allows for a lot of innovation?
This is in fact why Touch Screen's and mobile gaming has taken off. Does anyone really think Android and IOS devices succeed by software? NO, in reality it was blend of natural intuitive human interface of both software and hardware. So no, Ouya takes the human advancement that made the OS successful and then tosses it out for controller design philosophy that's 20 years old :|
I don't know. The way I see it, the reason why the OUYA will be successful (hopefully) is because of the fact that it combines the ease of access for small developers with a regular controller, which will permit us to create games that can rival with Wii U / XBOX360 / PS3 games. I don't know for you, but what I hate about creating games for android / iphone is that there is so much possibilities that you simply cannot do with a simple touch screen. You are very limited, and while it is true that for some games, touch controls are perfect, it is also true that for most games, it isn't enough
I'm hope the Ouya will be successful spite of the controller. I think the controller will make it easier for developers, but developers are not the mass consumer market. I will disagree about the limitations. I will agree however that the natural resistance of actual controls are better than TS simulations. I firm stance TS can open up many more doors for controllers. However I'm not limited to the idea of Ouya using a TS. I agree. I have played some games with good TS and other are just crappy.
[ big long angry rant about how sucky it is that we have to use a gamepad instead of pure touchpad controls or some other gimmicky input method like Kinect ]
First of all, they certainly are NOT going to scrap the design. It's FAR too late for that. They are very soon going to be in production with these. If they change the input method now, it will cost them to develop and design it, and break all games that are currently being ported over. That is something that no sane company would do. I think the touchpad control on the OUYA controller IS kind of neat. It has the potential to create some compelling gameplay mechanics that won't be found on other game consoles. I personally DON'T think they should have scrapped the standard game controller. I mean, even the WiiU with it's touch based controller still opted to stick standard gamepad controls on there, because there are far too many games that NEED THEM. For example, I think we can all agree that FPS games control horribly on touchscreen controls no matter what you do, and it completely eliminates the possibility of shoulder buttons and such, which usually results in the inability to run and gun at the same time (you have to take your thumb off the joystick to tap the shoot button). It was actually a good idea on the part of Boxer8 to use a fairly standard gamepad layout. I personally like gamepads.
Your right. They are way to far to change the controller. I did comment this on the kickstarter before it was funded also. So yes. There is no change now.
Wii U is the most unsuccessful Nintendo game console since the GC and 3DS. While they are selling they are no where near the DS and Wii. The simple reason for that is that the DS and Wii were expanding the way gamers play games where as the 3DS and WiiU play games like they did back in the GC days. Nintendo is already reporting it's worst year in a decade. How we interact with our games also defines what games can be made. WiiU is barely riding the popularity of the Wii. http://www.gamezone.com/products/wii-u/news/nintendo-wii-u-vs-wii-unit-sales-down-but-revenue-up
More units sold means more consumers for developers.
Touch screen could have shoulder buttons. My ipod has volume buttons. I'm sure it wouldn't take much to make them more game orientated. However I do agree that the volume buttons as they are would suck to no ends as a trigger. However, I used TS only as a representation of inutiutive input. Wand input is also pretty good.
In answer to the TS FPS. Good shoulder buttons are still viable(ala ipod touch volume, but better). Left analog touch for movement, right for turning. Could be done. Since such a controller does not exist. I do admit that playing FPS on TS has been difficult.
I love the Ouya, but I have to express my criticism on the controller. It sucks. I'm not even talking about the form factor. I'm talking about the design factor. The idea that the controller exists as it is only because they wan't to make a cheap XBOX and XBOX like games. The team doesn't want new innovative games. Innovation comes from inspirations and new ways of thinking.
If you have an empty room, then the room is easily everything a room can be. Dining, living, den, bedroom, kitchen, family, storage...... however, once you define the room by putting defining traits then the room's once everything is now limited. If you put a dresser and bed, then it cannot be a kitchen.
This is why the controller is aweful. By creating a controller that design is 20 years old, we are limited to game design that has already been defined by 20 years of such controllers. This is in fact why Touch Screen's and mobile gaming has taken off. Does anyone really think Android and IOS devices succeed by software? NO, in reality it was blend of natural intuitive human interface of both software and hardware. So no, Ouya takes the human advancement that made the OS successful and then tosses it out for controller design philosophy that's 20 years old :|
People have proven for a long time, that as long as it's good enough they will endure it, but if it's truly an experience that is unique. They will create a demand that wasn't there before.
Personally scrap the entire design and work on creating an input based around natural intuitive human input.
Natural and intuitive are pretty subjective, people can becomes accustomed to a controller in a way that eventually feel natural and intuitive to them, although it may take longer than something else. There is also a psychological phenomenon called Kinesthetic Projection that helps smooth things over as well.
I definitely agree with you on the fact that the controller could be anything - it doesn't have to take the conventional form of a game pad at all, and although that would be cool, it would probably take OUYA a lot longer to be made.
I think also another reason is that the gamepad is pretty satisfactory for the middle ground in gaming usage with the technology we have. Touch screens are not only expensive, but two-dimensional and have no sensation or touch or form to make them that easy to use, and it always occupies the same screen as what is happening, so vision is obscured. All other existing forms and attempts to make gameplay feel more natural are all limited in some way or other - some require lots of room, and they are all still limited to their own kinds of interactions anyway.
I don't think OUYA is the kind of console for this, at least not in this stage. If anything is gonna be, it will probably be at E3 this year ;3.
Yes, intuitive is subjective to the user. However, if using a controller will eventually become intuitive. that's not really the meaning of intuitive at all. That's adapting. Unfortunately that's been occurring for years. I still see arguments over which is better controller. PS or Xbox style.
Agreed with much of what you say. I also suppose it's best right now due to price.
I'm only passionate about the subject as I want the Ouya to succeed, but mass consumers determine that. The mass consumer is pointing that the simpler to learn, complex to master is a key foundation to large adoption rates. Where as the current common controller design isn't a mass consumer controller.
anyways. I seemed to spark some replies and I think all of them were pretty good :) thanks for the discussion :)
I'm hope the Ouya will be successful spite of the controller. I think the controller will make it easier for developers, but developers are not the mass consumer market. I will disagree about the limitations. I will agree however that the natural resistance of actual controls are better than TS simulations. I firm stance TS can open up many more doors for controllers. However I'm not limited to the idea of Ouya using a TS. I agree. I have played some games with good TS and other are just crappy.
You seem to be forgetting a very fundamental fact about touchscreens: they are SCREENS. You cannot use them effectively if you are not looking at what you are pushing. Had the Ouya had a touchscreen-centric controller, it would be a tablet you can't take outside. While it is possible to use something of the sort without looking at it, it is a VERY steep learning curve - just ask any artist who uses art tablets.
We have enough android tablets as it is, we don't need another one.
In answer to the TS FPS. Good shoulder buttons are still viable(ala ipod touch volume, but better). Left analog touch for movement, right for turning. Could be done. Since such a controller does not exist. I do admit that playing FPS on TS has been difficult.
Two analog controls and shoulder buttons... You haven't been playing console FPSes in the last 10 years, have you?
Exactly, make a tablet game if you want touch screens. What you really seem to be missing is the distinction between casual gamers and traditional\hard core gamers. Touch screens and motion control introduced gaming to a whole new market of people that had always found game pads too intimidating. So the Wii sold like hotcakes and everyone has a smart phone and or tablet now. However in the process, traditional gamers have been left in the cold. The Wii is a perfect example, for a system that sold 120+ million units, why is it there are almost no good or memorable third party gamer games on it? The app market isn't much better, some classic game types that traditionally control well with mouse input can manage but most classic game genres end up horribly compromised on mobile. Like driving games, platformers, fighting games, action games etc, etc.
There is a reason gamepads haven't changed much in the last decade. The standard today is the result of decades of evolution and refinement. Kind of like a Porsche 911, don't mess with success. Leave the gambling to Nintendo (and look how that went for them). Kinect has potential but is very crippled in its first iteration. Sony's Move system is pretty cool, but only works for certain types of games. The Wii's accelerometters were always a pain to get good gameplay and consistent results from. In the end you need a good solid, classic gamepad to fall back on for the vast majority of game types to work. And if you don't like the touchpad, don't use it! (you can disable the cursor in your game)
The OUYA is a console that is targeted to the classic gamer, not the masses. It has the right controller for the job, lets just hope they refine a few more things on it before launch.
Disclaimer: i normally like to use something before i criticize it, seeing how that won't be until march, i thought i'd voice an opinion
I really am not sure on the whole idea of using a touchpad i don't see a need... maybe it's just me, but i don't think enough games would use it in a way thats helpful... although a Wario Ware type game might find it useful... (i'm sure there are a lot of people
Also... if you're looking for ideas...
i think force feedback would be a good idea
or a start or select\back button...
if not in the Main OUYA controller, maybe in software for 3rd party HW
if not in the Main OUYA controller, maybe in software for 3rd party HW
They can't add force feedback, I believe it's been patented
As for start/select and D-pad, it's FAR TOO LATE at this point as many people have stated already. They will NOT make ANY changes to either the console or the controller, aside from perhaps some simple material changes.
As for the Start Button, it has been discussed before. They have decided that the Home button, when tapped, will act like a Start Button. But when held down, it will pop up the OUYA Menu. And the back button.... to be quite honest, I don't think I've ever seen an Xbox game that actually uses that button. In any case I don't think it's a very important button.
I actually don't care for the Rumblepad's D-pad. I actually have two of them, and the D-pad has a very long stalk that it rests on that basically makes it feel more like an oversized hatswitch than a true d-pad.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
I think that the D-pad is good as it is (at least from what I can tell of pictures). They've already exchanged the circle with four bumps design for a more precision D-pad, that could be the "tweak" the video was referring to.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
I appreciate you voicing your opinions speewave :) And don't worry, the D-Pad will be replaced, but even as it is right now, it feels really good. You wouldn't be able to tell from the pictures, but it just feels good. :)
The D-pad is ok, it feels good, but - it still feels a bit erratic for us (we got four of them) - not so much in-game, but more when bringing the virtual keyboard on screen. How many times one presses a direction, and the d-pad registers another, making simple letter choosing a nightmare! A bit annoying. So, our "solution" was to "work" (play a lot on) the d-pad for it to get less erratic. We got two of them going on much better now (testing with the virtual keyboard) after a few days, two remaining...
Exactly, make a tablet game if you want touch screens. What you really seem to be missing is the distinction between casual gamers and traditional\hard core gamers. Touch screens and motion control introduced gaming to a whole new market of people that had always found game pads too intimidating. So the Wii sold like hotcakes and everyone has a smart phone and or tablet now. However in the process, traditional gamers have been left in the cold. The Wii is a perfect example, for a system that sold 120+ million units, why is it there are almost no good or memorable third party gamer games on it? The app market isn't much better, some classic game types that traditionally control well with mouse input can manage but most classic game genres end up horribly compromised on mobile. Like driving games, platformers, fighting games, action games etc, etc.
There is a reason gamepads haven't changed much in the last decade. The standard today is the result of decades of evolution and refinement. Kind of like a Porsche 911, don't mess with success. Leave the gambling to Nintendo (and look how that went for them). Kinect has potential but is very crippled in its first iteration. Sony's Move system is pretty cool, but only works for certain types of games. The Wii's accelerometters were always a pain to get good gameplay and consistent results from. In the end you need a good solid, classic gamepad to fall back on for the vast majority of game types to work. And if you don't like the touchpad, don't use it! (you can disable the cursor in your game)
The OUYA is a console that is targeted to the classic gamer, not the masses. It has the right controller for the job, lets just hope they refine a few more things on it before launch.
Once again I am stating the TS as an example as to why tablets are successful. Not in fact that the Ouya must have a TS. While I believe that middle ground TS option would be convenient(as in the gamestick). I don't feel that binding a TS directly to the Ouya is the way to go. Instead I am saying that the design of the controller from the ground up should have been considered with human interaction in mind for maximum game design rather than the limitations of technological development 20 years ago. Your referring to 10, I'm referring to 20. While new bits have been added in the last decade like analog shoulders, dual analog, rumble. The primary controller of the current design really is a NES/SNES. Width based, movement on the left, buttons on the right, control options in the centre. Where as prior we had Intellivision(verticle), Coleco(verticle) and Atari(sqaure, 1 button).
The presentation video's clearly defined the Ouya as a mass market machine that aims to be on as many TV's as possible. However, it also sells itself as a classic game machine. Essentially it doesn't haven't clear market direction. Unfortunately mass market is not classic gaming :| All too often people read what they want out of a product and often not what would succeed. Here we are taking a graphical step back, but no step forward :( Well that's not entirely true, but it's not one that has come up in the forums yet.
Regarding Kinect, Move, Wii-Remote. I disagree with your statement. The only game I ever had troubles playing were Fighting games like Street Fighter where 6 buttons couldn't be feasible mapped. I found if a game was well designed with the controller in mind rather than porting the control scheme. Games were just as fluid and a little more intuitive in play if not over all better. Then again I also played some games that would drive me bonkers with the most shittiest controls. The rest is just preference an acclamation of one controller over another. I went from playing SF4 on PS3 to playing it on the IOS devices. I turned off the of assist and used the direct controls. I had to admit my skill using an analog TS was abysmal, but I kept at it and now pull them off flawlessly. Yet when I go back to the PS3 after not playing for a good couple of months. I sucked. It's controller acclamation that determines often what people consider the better controller. My argument isn't to copy a controller, but to design one that everyone can pick up and play with asap. No or minimal acclaimation.
Finally. "The OUYA is a console that is targeted to the classic gamer, not the masses. It has the right controller for the job, "
I have to single this one out as it's the entire point of the discussion. What you have just said right here is "The Ouya is to target a small population, then try and take market consumers away from Sony and MS". WHILE "at the same time use Android games"............ Who exactly is going to migrate? Have you been to the MS and Sony forums and more importantly the third party VG sites? they aren't exactly singing praises for the Ouya. No, unfortunately the market that the Ouya targets is small population, niche of niche. This is all by the way humans interact with there devices. What would you rather hammer with a rock or a hammer?
I like the summed up comment on this. As it's appropriate.
As a classic gamer, why should the classic gamer spend there time on the Ouya over PS3 or XBOX360? Price?, Games?, Why should current games who already well entrenched with accounts on the PS360 migrate and spend there time on the Ouya? Indie games? no because your argument is that it's for classic games, not for innovative games. Innovative games use the classic controller, but also are imaginate to use new forms of controllers. For the DS I loved Trauma Center and Elite Beat Agents. Both games that could not be created classic controller. Let's what else is there. Eye of Judgement, Dance Dance Revolution while DDR could be played on a controller the experience would be way lessoned. Even if you only flair. Guitar Hero and Rock band. The experience of these games are defined by different controls. Have you tried Godfather for the Wii. Wowzer that game for it's limited accelerometers is a game that did them right.. Mostly they could have used the title for driving :P Let alone Skyward Sword and Redsteel which were great for the experience of controls. yes you could mimic the controls, but the experience of psuedo sword fighting is very lost.
On the other reply. I indeed do not touch FPS on XBox's or PS's. I'm a player who prefers there shooters with a pointer. It's just what I prefer for shooters. Because that's what I'm used too :) I find the pointer to be more intuitive for aiming. And on that final note. I don't play Shooters too much at all these days. I find as the years go by I have the problem of render width to nausea :(
But ok. let me know what I missed.
1 Analog for moving(left)
1 Analog for aiming(right)
1 Shoulder for shooting(right)
1 Shoulder for Strafing(left)
Digital TS buttons for JUMP/CROUCH/HIDE(easily context sensitive, but not required), Aim mode, weapon selection, options, inventory...... TS finger slider for quick zoom in and out for scoped rifles.
Anyways you guys are great. Keep the insightful thoughts going. I'm learning a lot :)
I think the controller actually was the perfect fit for the job, even for people who are not "hardcore" gamers, because it's a design that everyone is immediately familiar with. Anyone who has ever even seen a game console in the last 10 years will be right at home with the layout of the sticks and the buttons. I think one point here is that it's not necessarily a "design from 20 years ago", it started as a design that was iteratively refined over a period of 20 years, tested on millions of gamers to get it just right, and we've arrived at the design we have today. In the same respect, cars over the last few decades work largely the same, but they've undergone many many improvements that make them more stable, handle better, run more efficiently, etc. Nobody in their right mind would completely scrap this design and make a car from scratch. OUYA shouldn't completely disregard 20 years of controller design and make something completely new from scratch that nobody will be familiar with. Maybe you don't like gamepads, but the rest of us do ;)
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
You've missed my point completely. Guess what, the 360 and PS3 are hardcore game machines, targeted to hardcore gamers, and they've sold millions and millions. However, the Wii has sold much more then either, and touch screen phones and tablets many times over what the Wii has (hence making those 2 platforms for the "masses"). I assure you the market for OUYA is quite large, even if it did just cater to hardcore gamers (which it doesn't).
As for what the point of the OUYA is, if you don't get that then I'm not sure why you're even here. Try watching their Kickstarter vid for starters, it makes it pretty clear what makes the OUYA special (and why the current game developer market needs it so bad).
Have you tried Godfather for the Wii. Wowzer that game for it's limited accelerometers is a game that did them right.. Mostly they could have used the title for driving :P Let alone Skyward Sword and Redsteel which were great for the experience of controls. yes you could mimic the controls, but the experience of psuedo sword fighting is very lost.
Those are games that use the motion input to a limited set of functions, they would not work had the Wii hadn't 4 buttons, an analog and a dpad to work with.
jayderyu2 said: Have you been to the MS and Sony forums and more importantly the third party VG sites? they aren't exactly singing praises for the Ouya.
Have you been to gaming forums in 2000/2001 to see how many people thought Microsoft would fall flat on their asses by launching a game console?
Indie games? no because your argument is that it's for classic games, not for innovative games.
Good, innovative games do not require gimmicky controls. However, crap that would be laughable by NES standards require gimmicky controls to disguise ridiculous game concepts (seriously, why do people like doodle jump? It's the kind of game I'd expect to be packaged with the atari 2600 dial controller)
On the other reply. I indeed do not touch FPS on XBox's or PS's. I'm a player who prefers there shooters with a pointer. It's just what I prefer for shooters. Because that's what I'm used too :) I find the pointer to be more intuitive for aiming. And on that final note. I don't play Shooters too much at all these days. I find as the years go by I have the problem of render width to nausea :(
But ok. let me know what I missed.
1 Analog for moving(left)
1 Analog for aiming(right)
1 Shoulder for shooting(right)
1 Shoulder for Strafing(left)
Digital TS buttons for JUMP/CROUCH/HIDE(easily context sensitive, but not required), Aim mode, weapon selection, options, inventory...... TS finger slider for quick zoom in and out for scoped rifles.
You cannot put that much junk on a touchscreen you're not going to be looking at during gameplay. It'll be a long, infuriating learning process till the player memorizes the exact position of each button, and them repeat the process all over for every game that doesn't have the same layout.
We've had a good long session with using the controllers and thought we'd chip in our feedback. We all want the OUYA to be an excellent console and with that, we must be harsh with out critique in order to be constructive.
We know the OUYA team is doing their best to make a stellar controller, we're by no means engineers, but we all have extensive experience with controllers to know what FEELS right and what does not.
Analog Sticks:
The flat design of the tops are not pleasant to use or to feel. They need some sort of grip or rubberization to them. The concave design of the Xbox 360 sticks feel very comfortable and give lots of grip to the user.
Besides grip, the main issue we had with the analogs is their "tightness". They are not smooth feeling and require more effort to keep down in a particular direction than say a 360 or PS3 controller. They just felt harder to use.
D-Pad:
Big area of improvement needs to be done here. Had a heck of a time using the on-screen keyboard initially as going in a straight direction would end up on an angle.
Face Buttons:
Probably the one place that felt pretty good, no real issues here.
OUYA Button:
Felt this button should be raised instead of inset into the controller.
Touchpad:
Low responsiveness or maybe just not sensitive enough? Area could also use a bevel around it to tell where the actual area starts and ends. Triggers & Bumpers:
This was a very problematic area we found. The back of the controller has a minor inward slope. With this, the bumpers are also slopped parallel to the back, instead, they should be flush, found ourselves constantly slipping off the bumpers, same with the triggers, they need to be concave instead of flat:
Top: Original Bottom: Modified
**Super quick and dirty PS job**
Also found the triggers are a little hard to push compared to other controllers, a bit stiff and could be a little looser.
Final Thoughts:
The controller just need some refinement to an otherwise solid foundation. Everyone else has said what needs to be said, lot's of great ideas here from all users. Please take this as constructive criticism and we look forward to a more final controller :)
You've missed my point completely. Guess what, the 360 and PS3 are hardcore game machines, targeted to hardcore gamers, and they've sold millions and millions.
Core. They are core gaming machines. The so-called "hardcore" gamer got mixed in the bunch because your average guy on the street didn't understand core vs. casual.Now the whole conversation is confused and the media has started using the incorrect term. Even Pachter (who knows better) has throw in the towel and now uses the wrong term.
jayderyu2 said: Good, innovative games do not require gimmicky controls.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it's worth pointing out that the Wii controllers as well as touchscreens were successful because they simplified the controls. I grew up with NES, SNES, and N64 and there was a point where I was finding modern controllers way too much. So many buttons and functions to play just about any game
Why, my Atari 2600 has ONE button and I like it that way! (Damn kids get off my lawn!)
Just wanted to pop in here to say that I'm definitely having trouble with the joysticks. I'm making a fast-paced action game, and my thumb is constantly slipping away. I long for my indented/rubber Xbox pad.
I did some testing on the ouya controller test app and didn't see any real issues with the DPad. I simulated some street fighter moves and it seems to be able to pull off them nicely.
I didn't have a problem with the shoulder button shape. In fact I like how easy it is to press both bumpers and triggers with only the index fingers. That's something that always annoyed me on other controller designs. The only other design that allows to press both is the playstation, and he sucks at it because of the gap between the two and lack of depth. Ouya's nonexistent gap and angled design makes that much better.
However I think the bumpers should be anchored on the outside rather than the inside. The way the controller is designed means you are more likely to press them on the middle or the inner edges rather than the outer edges.
Trigger stiffness is probably a matter of lack of lubrication rather than design. No two triggers of mine have the same feeling.
This was a very problematic area we found. The back of the controller has a minor inward slope. With this, the bumpers are also slopped parallel to the back, instead, they should be flush, found ourselves constantly slipping off the bumpers, same with the triggers, they need to be concave instead of flat:
I really have no idea how you managed to slip from the shoulder buttons. The curves of the controller seems to put the index fingers (and middle fingers too if you hold it like that) about perpendicular with the shaulder buttons. It's much better than the X360, for instance: The hand's rest is at a quite wider angle than the X360's controller, it should make it harder to slip from the triggers (it does to me), not easier
Just wanted to pop in here to say that I'm definitely having trouble with the joysticks. I'm making a fast-paced action game, and my thumb is constantly slipping away. I long for my indented/rubber Xbox pad.
I mentioned this initially as well, but wanted to reiterate that this is crucial. After a lot of use and lot of play testing our game, my thumbs are getting fatigued from the extra effort it takes to keep them on the sticks (they keep slipping off during quick movements). You can overcome this if you're playing for a few minutes, but it wears on you if you use the controller a lot.
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Look at pretty much any Xbox/WiiU/PS3 game. Probably at least 80% of the games you find are going to make heavy use of the D-Pad for very important in-game actions (like in L4D, you use the D-pad to quickly access important items like your Medkit/Defib, Pain Pills, Bile Jar, Pipe Bomb, etc)
And it's pretty much a NECESSITY for any self-respecting fighting game to use the D-pad.
Just because your game doesn't use the D-pad doesn't mean ALL games do not use the D-pad.
I'm still not with you on the touch pad though. Aside from the fact that they are not going to change anything at this point (it's way too late for that), the touchpad could actually be used for interesting and engaging gameplay mechanics, the same way touchscreens are useful for a lot more than virtual thumbsticks and buttons.
Plus, of course, you'll see a few games here and there that use it for Quick-Time Events ;)
http://www.gamezone.com/products/wii-u/news/nintendo-wii-u-vs-wii-unit-sales-down-but-revenue-up
In answer to the TS FPS. Good shoulder buttons are still viable(ala ipod touch volume, but better). Left analog touch for movement, right for turning. Could be done. Since such a controller does not exist. I do admit that playing FPS on TS has been difficult.
Yes, intuitive is subjective to the user. However, if using a controller will eventually become intuitive. that's not really the meaning of intuitive at all. That's adapting. Unfortunately that's been occurring for years. I still see arguments over which is better controller. PS or Xbox style.
You seem to be forgetting a very fundamental fact about touchscreens: they are SCREENS. You cannot use them effectively if you are not looking at what you are pushing. Had the Ouya had a touchscreen-centric controller, it would be a tablet you can't take outside. While it is possible to use something of the sort without looking at it, it is a VERY steep learning curve - just ask any artist who uses art tablets.
We have enough android tablets as it is, we don't need another one.
Two analog controls and shoulder buttons... You haven't been playing console FPSes in the last 10 years, have you?
They can't add force feedback, I believe it's been patented
As for start/select and D-pad, it's FAR TOO LATE at this point as many people have stated already. They will NOT make ANY changes to either the console or the controller, aside from perhaps some simple material changes.
As for the Start Button, it has been discussed before. They have decided that the Home button, when tapped, will act like a Start Button. But when held down, it will pop up the OUYA Menu. And the back button.... to be quite honest, I don't think I've ever seen an Xbox game that actually uses that button. In any case I don't think it's a very important button.
I actually don't care for the Rumblepad's D-pad. I actually have two of them, and the D-pad has a very long stalk that it rests on that basically makes it feel more like an oversized hatswitch than a true d-pad.
They've already exchanged the circle with four bumps design for a more precision D-pad, that could be the "tweak" the video was referring to.
I appreciate you voicing your opinions speewave :) And don't worry, the D-Pad will be replaced, but even as it is right now, it feels really good. You wouldn't be able to tell from the pictures, but it just feels good. :)
www.yummycircus.com
Regarding Kinect, Move, Wii-Remote. I disagree with your statement. The only game I ever had troubles playing were Fighting games like Street Fighter where 6 buttons couldn't be feasible mapped. I found if a game was well designed with the controller in mind rather than porting the control scheme. Games were just as fluid and a little more intuitive in play if not over all better. Then again I also played some games that would drive me bonkers with the most shittiest controls. The rest is just preference an acclamation of one controller over another. I went from playing SF4 on PS3 to playing it on the IOS devices. I turned off the of assist and used the direct controls. I had to admit my skill using an analog TS was abysmal, but I kept at it and now pull them off flawlessly. Yet when I go back to the PS3 after not playing for a good couple of months. I sucked. It's controller acclamation that determines often what people consider the better controller. My argument isn't to copy a controller, but to design one that everyone can pick up and play with asap. No or minimal acclaimation.
I like the summed up comment on this. As it's appropriate.
Price?, Games?, Why should current games who already well entrenched with accounts on the PS360 migrate and spend there time on the Ouya? Indie games? no because your argument is that it's for classic games, not for innovative games. Innovative games use the classic controller, but also are imaginate to use new forms of controllers. For the DS I loved Trauma Center and Elite Beat Agents. Both games that could not be created classic controller. Let's what else is there. Eye of Judgement, Dance Dance Revolution while DDR could be played on a controller the experience would be way lessoned. Even if you only flair. Guitar Hero and Rock band. The experience of these games are defined by different controls. Have you tried Godfather for the Wii. Wowzer that game for it's limited accelerometers is a game that did them right.. Mostly they could have used the title for driving :P Let alone Skyward Sword and Redsteel which were great for the experience of controls. yes you could mimic the controls, but the experience of psuedo sword fighting is very lost.
But ok. let me know what I missed.
Anyways you guys are great. Keep the insightful thoughts going. I'm learning a lot :)
I think one point here is that it's not necessarily a "design from 20 years ago", it started as a design that was iteratively refined over a period of 20 years, tested on millions of gamers to get it just right, and we've arrived at the design we have today. In the same respect, cars over the last few decades work largely the same, but they've undergone many many improvements that make them more stable, handle better, run more efficiently, etc. Nobody in their right mind would completely scrap this design and make a car from scratch. OUYA shouldn't completely disregard 20 years of controller design and make something completely new from scratch that nobody will be familiar with.
Maybe you don't like gamepads, but the rest of us do ;)
Have you been to gaming forums in 2000/2001 to see how many people thought Microsoft would fall flat on their asses by launching a game console?
Good, innovative games do not require gimmicky controls. However, crap that would be laughable by NES standards require gimmicky controls to disguise ridiculous game concepts (seriously, why do people like doodle jump? It's the kind of game I'd expect to be packaged with the atari 2600 dial controller)
You cannot put that much junk on a touchscreen you're not going to be looking at during gameplay. It'll be a long, infuriating learning process till the player memorizes the exact position of each button, and them repeat the process all over for every game that doesn't have the same layout.
We know the OUYA team is doing their best to make a stellar controller, we're by no means engineers, but we all have extensive experience with controllers to know what FEELS right and what does not.
Analog Sticks:
The flat design of the tops are not pleasant to use or to feel. They need some sort of grip or rubberization to them. The concave design of the Xbox 360 sticks feel very comfortable and give lots of grip to the user.
Besides grip, the main issue we had with the analogs is their "tightness". They are not smooth feeling and require more effort to keep down in a particular direction than say a 360 or PS3 controller. They just felt harder to use.
D-Pad:
Big area of improvement needs to be done here. Had a heck of a time using the on-screen keyboard initially as going in a straight direction would end up on an angle.
Face Buttons:
Probably the one place that felt pretty good, no real issues here.
OUYA Button:
Felt this button should be raised instead of inset into the controller.
Touchpad:
Low responsiveness or maybe just not sensitive enough? Area could also use a bevel around it to tell where the actual area starts and ends.
Triggers & Bumpers:
This was a very problematic area we found. The back of the controller has a minor inward slope. With this, the bumpers are also slopped parallel to the back, instead, they should be flush, found ourselves constantly slipping off the bumpers, same with the triggers, they need to be concave instead of flat:
Top: Original
Bottom: Modified
**Super quick and dirty PS job**
Also found the triggers are a little hard to push compared to other controllers, a bit stiff and could be a little looser.
Final Thoughts:
The controller just need some refinement to an otherwise solid foundation. Everyone else has said what needs to be said, lot's of great ideas here from all users. Please take this as constructive criticism and we look forward to a more final controller :)
Nexus Game Studio | @ NexusGameStudio
I didn't have a problem with the shoulder button shape. In fact I like how easy it is to press both bumpers and triggers with only the index fingers. That's something that always annoyed me on other controller designs. The only other design that allows to press both is the playstation, and he sucks at it because of the gap between the two and lack of depth. Ouya's nonexistent gap and angled design makes that much better.
However I think the bumpers should be anchored on the outside rather than the inside. The way the controller is designed means you are more likely to press them on the middle or the inner edges rather than the outer edges.
Trigger stiffness is probably a matter of lack of lubrication rather than design. No two triggers of mine have the same feeling.
I really have no idea how you managed to slip from the shoulder buttons. The curves of the controller seems to put the index fingers (and middle fingers too if you hold it like that) about perpendicular with the shaulder buttons. It's much better than the X360, for instance:
The hand's rest is at a quite wider angle than the X360's controller, it should make it harder to slip from the triggers (it does to me), not easier
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